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Author Topic: Man was I ever off on this one! I said N Color, GIA said U-V  (Read 2335 times)
Diamondsbylauren
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« on: August 14, 2008, 10:05:04 PM »

Below is my pre GIA estimate of the diamond

WEIGHT: 2.53ct
SHAPE: Round Brilliant
COLOR: N
CLARITY: VS2
MEASUREMENTS: 8.58 - 8.60 x 5.42 mm
TOTAL DEPTH: 63.2%
TABLE SIZE: 56 (est)%
FLUORESCENCE: STRONG BLUE

Here's the GIA report


I was more generous and called it VS2, GIA called it Si1.
I estimated a 56% table, GIA got 58%.

IN fairness, it's an amazingly difficult stone to pin down.

For example- these two photos- one taken in fairly bright lighting the other in dim.




I love the cut....

Looking at the diamond from behind, it's easy to see why GIA called it U-V.
It's a yellow diamond!


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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 10:30:07 PM »

the youtube

At some points in the video I'm holding the diamond under the desk almost completely dark- and the diamond still shines!
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David
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 10:48:13 PM »

Hey, David!
I'm with you on the cut; I prefer less than 60% table.  But don't beat yourself up on the color; you were probably distracted when Cori told you that I called about my wire transfer or those hundred-thousand other things you have on your mind.  Gee Whiz, afterall, you've got three computer monitors on your desk simultaneously running, and you answer the phone,too.
Were you so distracted with all the interuptions that perhaps you didn't actually grade this stone, but recorded the color of the last one that you handled?
Give yourself a break, Big Guy.  We all think you're the best!
Score-101010

Besides, it's after 10PM; you should be home with your wife.  love3
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 11:05:39 PM »

Star length? Have I not been paying attention to new reports. What is that all about?
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Sanchica27
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 11:42:17 PM »

oh she's a beaut though!   it just goes to show you how white those rb's face up doesn't it? 
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 12:05:49 AM »

It is definitely a beauty!


Question:  if white diamonds are graded face down and fancies are graded face up, and what point on the scale does the grader make the flip?  When looking at a Y-Z trying to decide if it is a FLY?
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Sanchica27
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 12:19:04 AM »

good question! i have wondered this as well...
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Mrs Mitchell
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2008, 10:18:36 AM »

I love the cut - what a beautiful diamond. Did the fluorescence hamper the colour grading?
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2008, 02:48:36 PM »

Star length? Have I not been paying attention to new reports. What is that all about?

The new GIA reports for colorless and near colorless round brilliant diamonds have precise measurements similar to what a "Sarin" machine does.
The "Star Length" refers to the star facet, and it's Length in relation to the diamond.
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2008, 03:04:08 PM »

It is definitely a beauty!


Question:  if white diamonds are graded face down and fancies are graded face up, and what point on the scale does the grader make the flip?  When looking at a Y-Z trying to decide if it is a FLY?
Great question!
Ther'es no easy answer here...it's based on judgement.

Once a diamond is dark enough ( I'd say that U-V or so is where they start), the grader considers both the color thru the pavillion- ( upside down) as well as the face up of the diamond
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 03:05:35 PM »

I love the cut - what a beautiful diamond. Did the fluorescence hamper the colour grading?

Yes- fluorescence really makes it difficult to gauge the color!
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 03:13:50 PM »

We might have to have a thread lesson on that one David. I feel a new tutorial coming on. There are a lot of things on that report that I'll need your famous drawings to explain.

Oh. I have an idea. You could do a YOU Tube on that! Teach the world so to speak. GIA new cut report by DBL. Then you could show the report and drawings and the diamond, too. I think the ones with a bit of body color are better examples because you can see things like star facets more easily.
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 06:34:13 PM »

I don't know, I look at the report and I think:  1087 There is so MUCH to consider.  I'd want to study a whole PILE of stones and their respective reports before I could even begin to figure out the significance of each spec, the good, the bad, and which qualities or combination of qualities I prefer in a diamond...
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2008, 01:31:20 PM »

I love the cut - what a beautiful diamond. Did the fluorescence hamper the colour grading?

Yes- fluorescence really makes it difficult to gauge the color!

Interesting. I love diamonds with fluorescence, I think there's just something extra special about them sometimes. The black light key chain you sent me is one of the coolest things ever, and I've spent a long time looking at various pieces under it. I wish I could capture them fluoresing (sp?) on camera. One of my sapphires does it too. Very interesting!
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2008, 04:55:55 PM »

I've seen how blue fluorescence make a white diamond look bluish or hazy in certain lighting (not UV).  What impact does strong yellow fluorescence have on deeply colored stone such as a yellow or a yellow-brown?  What impact does strong blue have on a yellow or yellow-brownish stone?  Will strong fluor make all diamonds look hazy?  Is strong fluorescence bad in every case?
 
Grin  Mikla

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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 06:46:50 AM »

Starting from your last one:

4. No.

3. No. For more info on fluorescence, this GIA paper has what I would call the definitive answer to your questions.

2. Take a look at this. The centre diamond has very strong blue fluorescence, and it's graded Fancy Intense Yellow. Apart from seeming slightly less yellow in some conditions, it's generally having almost no visible effect.

1. The only thing I can think of is that it makes the yellow element in the colour stand out more. That's certainly the case in the yellow/orange fluorescing stones in the same ring above; check the two very yellow-looking small stones at the bottom left of the ring in the flash picture (last full-size picture of the ring).

It also seems to be true for the FDBGY 2.81 Asscher cut that David posted a while ago, since the brownish/greenish elements seem fairly tenuous (to me at least), and I would almost call it orangish yellow.
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2008, 09:57:36 AM »

It also seems to be true for the FDBGY 2.81 Asscher cut that David posted a while ago, since the brownish/greenish elements seem fairly tenuous (to me at least), and I would almost call it orangish yellow.

It would be interesting to see what this diamond looks like photographed under different lighting conditions.  I don't really see the strong yellow in the posted photographs; it looks more like a caramel color to me.  Still, they are calling it a brownish greenish yellow.  What are your thoughts on this stone's cut? Does the cut have anything to do with the way the strong yellow fluorescence presents itself? How the color might change in different lighting conditions?  Would the yellow come out more?



Mikla

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oldmancoyote
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 11:07:10 AM »

It would be interesting to see what this diamond looks like photographed under different lighting conditions.  I don't really see the strong yellow in the posted photographs; it looks more like a caramel color to me.  Still, they are calling it a brownish greenish yellow.  What are your thoughts on this stone's cut? Does the cut have anything to do with the way the strong yellow fluorescence presents itself? How the color might change in different lighting conditions?  Would the yellow come out more?

Mikla
Hi Mikla,

the fact you don't see the strong yellow is what I was trying to say - in any stone, I don't think you'd see the fluorescence colour as such, but just as a modifier of the underlying colour. There isn't that much green or brown in the tint, but I suspect if the stone were not fluorescing strong yellow you'd see them much more.

As far as I know, fluorescence in diamonds depends on structural "defects" of the crystal (including substitution of carbon atoms with nitrogen or other impurities), and is not directional, so I doubt they would have cut the stone as a function of the fluorescence characteristics, but I'm not a cutter, and totally ready to be proven wrong; after all, testing for fl is easily done on the rough.

As for the last question, it depends so much on what the "original" lighting was, that I'm not even going to attempt an opinon  Wink
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Trinkette
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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2008, 11:25:16 AM »

Good points, OMC.

OK, I'll take a swing at it:
Mikla, remember, "caramel" isn't a recognized color, it is just a subjective term used to describe a light yellowish brown color.  Basically, if a color isn't on a color wheel it isn't going to be used by GIA or a legit business to describe a diamond. Also, remember, these photos must indicate all diamond qualities... color as well as shape, clarity and cut.  Sometimes accuracy for one, leads to photographic innaccuracy for another.  *SIGH*

So, let's get back to what we see in the photo at hand. According to GIA, this is a yellow stone with brown and green modifiers and strong yellow fluorescence. Now, look at the photo.  The photo shows a great RANGE of tone (lightness and darkness), but the yellow hue is EVERYWHERE.  I see a bright greenish yellow in the horizontal band in the top "V" of the stone, for example. For many people, this band color would just look "yellow."  But, if you were to mix that color with pure pigment, as in paint, it would take a certain amount of green to achieve it (well, actually blue and pure yellow, because blue and yellow make green, but, we won't go there... AGHHHH!). But, the point is, it is not PURE yellow, it has a "modifier." Also, I see brownish yellow (that looks orangy) in the vertical bands on the left side of the photo, and darker, warmer brown (what is very dark yellow with a modifier of brown - brown?) toward the center. Here and there, most notably on a thin horizontal band about halfway down the bottom triangle, there are darker brownish greenish yellow areas. See them?  But, notice, the YELLOW is everywhere. The brown and green are secondary to the yellow. And, the strong yellow fluorescence probably strengthens the overall yellow-ness.

In GIA lingo, the color is "brownish greenish YELLOW," the tone is "FANCY DEEP."  To some extent, it is the fancy deep that you are interpreting as brown because after it reaches "full saturation," the darker a pure yellow gets, the murkier it appears, just as if you go in the other direction away from total saturation, the more washed out, or pale yellow becomes. Each saturation point for each diamond color is different, but on the GIA scale, pure saturation for yellow is reached at about "fancy intense." Since this stone is graded two shades darker than that, the yellow hue is not as vivid anymore. Couple that with the overall brown secondary hue... voila, you have a diamond that, to you, looks like "caramel." But, to GIA, the main color is "yellow."

Also note, if you compare this photo to the other two that David has supplied, this is the DARKEST of the three. 

NOW, knowing what GIA has said, looking at this photo and comparing it to the oher two photos, my guess would be that in daylight, this stone will appear on the lighter, but not lightest, end of the scale indicated by the photo.  Obviously, in darker light, it will appear darker.  So, for me, in "layman's terms" I'd guess that in person, this looks more like a rich "honey" color rather than "caramel."  And, because I'm a persnickity pain, I'd probably call it greenish-honey.  But, I'm only guessing, and I could be TOTALLY off! violent1 (David can flog me now).

If you are seriously interested in this diamond, perhaps David can take a handshot for you? Just remember, the color may be more acurate in terms of how it will look against skin, but, without light reflecting through it, the skin photo will look muddier than the stone willl be in person, or when it is set to let the light pass through the stone.  Roll Eyes

OK, I'm too long-winded.  I know it. You may flog me too...  1087
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Trinkette
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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 11:32:07 AM »

Ok, to be completely un-scientific here, I compared the asscher photo to two bottles of honey we have here at the house. The honey is too dark.  So, after careful consideration, to me, the diamond in the photo precisely matches the color of the oil at the top of the Ken's Steak House Zesty Italian salad dressing when I hold it up to the window (the dressing is too green in front of the computer screen).  There.  angel
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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 11:38:18 AM »

Was the honey locally grown?  Grin
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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2008, 12:40:17 PM »

bigclap

Good post Trinkette!

I think I'll pass on Ken's salad dressing though...  Grin
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